Umps Terms and Conditions
Disclaimer
We, including our employees, agents, consultants and contractors, are not medical practitioners or health professionals. We do not give medical advice, treatment or diagnoses.
Our Equipment and Services are not intended to diagnose, treat, cure or prevent any disease or condition, and you are solely responsible for determining the suitability of our Services and Equipment for your circumstances, and your reliance on our Services is at your own risk.
Our Services are not a replacement for consulting a medical practitioner or contacting emergency services. If you need immediate medical help, you should call 000 or seek appropriate medical care. If you have any health or medical issues or concerns, you should speak with an appropriately qualified medical professional prior to using our Services.
Introduction
Welcome to Umps!
We provide devices that support independent living, including watches and personal alarms (we call these our "Equipment").
In these Terms, when we say you or your, we mean both you and any entity you are authorised to represent (such as your employer). When we say we, uswe,us, or our, we mean Umps Health Pty Ltd (ACN 616 350 611).
These Terms form our contract with you, and set out our obligations as a service provider and your obligations as a customer. You cannot use our Services unless you agree to these Terms.
Some capitalised words in these Terms have defined meanings, and each time that word is used in these Terms it has the same meaning. You can find a list of the defined words and their meaning at the end of these Terms.
For questions about these Terms, or to get in touch with us, please email: info@umps.com
These Terms were last updated on 30 January 2025
OUR DISCLOSURES
Please read these Terms carefully before you accept. We draw your attention to:
● Our privacy policy (on our website) which sets out how we will handle your personal information;
● Clause 1.3 (Variations) which sets out how we may amend these Terms;
● Clause 5 (Payment) which sets out important information about your Subscription, including whether you can cancel your Subscription and whether your Subscription auto-renews;
● Clause 7 (Equipment Hire) which sets out information about hiring the Equipment, including late return fees; and
● Clause 12(Liability) and clause 2.7 which sets out exclusions and limitations to ourliability under these Terms;
These Terms don't take away any of your legal rights, including your rights under Australian Consumer Law.
1. Engagement and Term
1.1 These Terms apply from when you sign up for our Services, until the date on which you terminate in accordance with these Terms. We grant you a right to use our Services forthis period of time only.
1.2 You must be at least 18years old to use our Services.
1.3 We may need to makechanges to our Services or Fees. If we do, we will tell you about these changesin writing at least 30 days before they take effect (Variation Notice Period).If you don't agree with the changes, you can tell us in writing within theVariation Notice Period. You can then end these Terms with 30 days' notice andcontinue using our current Services at the current price until the end of yournotice period.
2. Our Services
2.1 Services We Provide
We provide you with:
(a) access to our Equipment and related services; and
(b) access to our troubleshooting support (Support Services).
Together, we call these our Services.
2.2 How Our Services Work
When your Equipment is activated, it will work differently depending on your Subscription and Alert Response Protocol. Your Equipment will either:
(a) connect you to a Monitoring Centre, where an operator will speak with you to understand your situation and responding accordance with your Alert Response Protocol; or
(b) Connect you directly with individuals you have nominated as contacts (Nominated Contacts) in accordance with your Alert Response Protocol.
2.3 Automatic Falls Detection Technology.
Some of our Equipment incorporates Automatic Fall Detection Technology and may automatically raise an Alert in the event of a fall. However, you acknowledge and agree that:
(a) Automatic Fall Detection Technology has inherent limitations and may not detect all falls;
(b) not all falls can or will be detected by the Equipment;
(c) you should not rely solely on Automatic Fall Detection Technology and should manually activate the Alert function if you require assistance; and
(d) Automatic Fall Detection Technology may occasionally raise a False Alert when no actual fall has occurred.
2.4 You acknowledge and agree that:
(a) Equipment will only work in areas with cellular signal;
(b) Equipment will only be able to send your location to the monitoring centre if GPS signal is available;
(c) certain Equipmentmust be charged regularly;
(d) Equipment may stop working if it is dropped or damaged.
2.5 You acknowledge and agree that our Equipment is designed to support your independent living. However, it is not intended to replace or substitute emergency services. To the maximum extent permitted by law, we will not be liable for any incidents, including but not limited to personal injury or death, that may occur as a result of the operation, malfunction, or failure of our Equipment. It is your responsibility to ensure appropriate emergency measures are in place independently of our Equipment.
2.6 Our Services are not intended to diagnose, cure, treat or prevent any medical conditions, and are nota substitute for professional medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Always direct any questions you may have regarding a medical condition to a qualified health professional. Never disregard professional medical advice or delay in seeking it because of information provided by this Equipment or our Services.
2.7 You acknowledge andagree that we will not be responsible if your Nominated Contacts do not respondto Alerts raised by the Equipment or is not contactable in accordance with yourAlert Response Protocol.
2.8 Where we requireaccess to your premises or computer systems in order to provide our Services,you agree to provide us with such access free from risk to the safety of ouremployees and contractors.
2.9 We will not beresponsible for any other services unless expressly set out on in these Termsor on our website.
2.10 If you requireSupport Services for the Equipment, you may request these by contacting us byphone or email.
2.11 Unless we agreeotherwise, Support Services cannot be used to support any other equipment orservices, and does not include training, installation of software or hardware,software development or the modification, deletion or recovery of data or anyon-site services.
2.12 Trial and Early Access Services. If we give you access to any newservices or features that are still being tested (Beta Services), youunderstand that:
(a) these services arestill being developed and may not work perfectly;
(b) you use theseservices at your own risk;
(c) we do not have to fixany errors or keep providing these services; and
(d) we may stop providingthese services at any time.
BetaServices are for testing only and should not be relied upon for essentialsupport.
2.13 Third Party Products or Services. Whereyou engage third parties to operate alongside our Services, those third partiesare independent of us and you are responsible for (meaning we will not beliable for) the goods or services they provide, unless we expressly agreeotherwise.
3. Warrantyagainst defects
3.1 In Australia, ourgoods come with guarantees which cannot be excluded under the AustralianConsumer Law. You are entitled to a replacement or refund for a major failureand compensation for any other reasonably foreseeable loss or damage. You arealso entitled to have the goods repaired or replaced if the goods fail to be ofacceptable quality and the failure does not amount to a major failure.
3.2 To the maximum extentpermitted by law, and subject to your rights under Australian Consumer Law, wemake no warranty or representation as to the fitness for purpose, suitability,or effectiveness of the Equipment or Services for your particular needs or circumstances.You acknowledge that you have relied on your own judgement in selecting andusing the Equipment and Services, and that you use them at your own risk.
3.3 Our Additional Warranty. In addition to your rights underAustralian Consumer Law, we provide a 1-year warranty that our Equipment willbe free from defects (Warranty).
3.4 What is Covered by Our Warranty?
Our Warranty coversany faults, errors or defects in the Equipment (Defect).
3.5 How to Make a Warranty Claim
If you think there isa Defect in your Equipment during the first year after delivery:
(a) stop using theEquipment;
(b) contact us inwriting;
(c) provide photos and adescription of the Defect; and
(d) if we ask you to,return the Equipment to us with all its parts and accessories.
3.6 How We Handle Warranty Claims
When we receive yourEquipment, we will examine it to determine if your claim is valid under ourWarranty.
3.7 Costs of Returning Equipment
You are responsiblefor the cost of returning the Equipment to us. However, if we find that yourclaim is valid under either our Warranty or Australian Consumer Law, we willrefund these costs to you.
3.8 What We Will Do If Your Claim isSuccessful
If we accept yourWarranty claim, we will, at our cost:
(a) repair or replace theEquipment (we will decide which); or
(b) if we cannot repairor replace the Equipment, we will offer you either a credit, refund orappropriate compensation.
3.9 What is Not Covered by Our Warranty
Our Warranty does notcover damage caused by:
(a) normal wear and tearfrom everyday use;
(b) accidents, drops, or impacts;
(c) water damage orexposure to extreme temperatures, except where equipment was being used inconditions consistent with its relevant water resistance rating;
(d) improper use or notfollowing the User Guide;
(e) unauthorised repairsor modifications;
(f) cosmetic changes likescratches, discoloration, or aesthetic blemishes that don't affect how theEquipment works;
(g) battery degradationwithin normal ranges;
(h) damage from usingincompatible accessories or power supplies;
(i) damage caused byfailing to properly maintain or clean the Equipment; or
(j) damage caused by notproperly charging the Equipment.
4. Order
4.1 You can place an order for our Equipmentthrough our website or authorised third party retailers and partners.
4.2 You may choose to purchase or hire theEquipment.
4.3 Once you have received our Equipment, we will contactyou requesting the completion of a registration form.
4.4 In order for us to provide you with theServices, you must provide us with requested information. This includesinformation about your Nominated Contacts and other information that mayfacilitate the delivery of our service to you.
4.5 You warrant that you have obtained appropriate consentfrom any individuals whose personal information you provide to us during theregistration process, including your Nominated Contacts
4.6 We collect, hold and disclose and use anyPersonal Information you provide to us in accordance with our privacy policy,available on our website, and applicable privacy laws.
5.1 If you purchase the Equipment, you must pay thepurchase price of the Equipment upfront, as outlined on the website, (EquipmentFee), and the Subscription Fee on an ongoing basisto access our Services.
5.2 If you hire the Equipment, you will only paythe ongoing Subscription Fee to access our Services.
5.3 The Subscriptions we offer will be set out on ourwebsite, including details of each Subscription’s features and limitations, SubscriptionFees and Subscription Periods.
5.4 During the Subscription Period, you will bebilled for the Subscription Fees on a recurring basis, as set out on our website(Billing Cycle).
5.5 You will be billed for any Subscription Feesdue at the beginning of each Billing Cycle. Our payments methods will be setout on our website. If you choose to pay your Subscription Fees using one ofour third-party payment processors, you may need to accept their terms andconditions (if this is the case, these will be set out on our website).
5.6 You must not pay, or attempt to pay, any SubscriptionFees or Equipment Fees by fraudulent or unlawful means. If you make payment bydebit or credit card, you must be the authorised card holder. If payment ismade by direct debit, by providing your bank account details and acceptingthese Terms, you authorise our nominated third-party payment processor to debityour bank account in accordance with your chosen Subscription, and you confirmthat you are either the holder or an authorised signatory of that bank account.
5.7 Cancellation: Your Subscriptioncontinues for the Subscription Period, and at the end of each SubscriptionPeriod, provided you have paid all Subscription Fees owing, your Subscriptionwill be automatically renewed for the same Subscription Period. If you wish tocancel your Subscription, you may do so by contacting us. Your cancellationwill take effect at the end of your current Subscription Period, and your Subscriptionwill not be renewed (meaning you will need to continue paying all SubscriptionFees due up until your current Subscription Period ends).
5.8 Emergency Service Fees: Should we orour Monitoring Centre, in the exercise of our discretion, decide it isappropriate to request that a representative of one of the Emergency Servicesto attend your home following an Alert, then, if Umps is required by thatEmergency Service to pay for the attendance, you agree to indemnify us for thefee paid by us to the Emergency Services.
5.9 Late Payments: If any SubscriptionFees are not paid on time, we may:
(a) suspend your access our Services; and
(b) charge interest on any overdue payments at arate equal to the Reserve Bank of Australia’s cash rate, from time-to-time,plus 2% per annum, calculated daily and compounding monthly.
5.10 Taxes: You are responsible for paying any levies ortaxes associated with your use of our Services, for example sales taxes, value-added taxes or withholding taxes (unlesswe are required by law to collect these on your behalf).
6. Title and Risk
6.1 If you are purchasing the Equipment:
(a) title to the Equipment will remain with usuntil you have paid the Equipment Fee in full; and
(b) risk in the Equipment will pass to you as soonas the Equipment is delivered to the delivery address provided by you.
6.2 If you are hiring the Equipment:
(a) title in the Equipment will at all times remainwith us; and
(b) risk in the Equipment will pass to you as soonas the Equipment is delivered to the delivery address provided by you.
7. Equipment Hire
7.1 You agree to:
(a) contact us immediately if there is any damageto, or defects in, the Equipment;
(b) not allow anyone to interfere or otherwisetamper with the Equipment;
(c) not allow any third party to conduct repairs ormaintenance on the Equipment without our prior consent;
(d) pay us the cost of the Equipment (as a debt dueand immediately payable) where their loss, theft, damage or destruction occurs;
(e) protect and maintain the Equipment in theOriginal Condition; and
(f) keep the Equipment in your custody and controlat all times, and not sublease, rent, sell or otherwise transfer the Equipment to any other person.
7.2 Upon termination orexpiry of this Agreement, you must return the Equipment to us in the OriginalCondition. You will be responsible for the costs of returning the Equipment tous. You agree that if you do not return the Equipment to the return location bythe agreed time, or have not made the Equipment available for our collection atthe agreed time (if we have elected to collect the Equipment, in our solediscretion), then we may charge you a fee for late return. You agree that thelate return fee is a genuine pre-estimate of loss suffered or incurred by us asa result of your delay in returning the Equipment to us.
7.3 You may elect toPurchase the Equipment by notifying us at any time. We will provide you with a quotefor the Equipment Fee. Upon payment of the Equipment Fee, title in theEquipment will pass to you and you will no longer need to return the Equipmentto us on expiry or termination of this Agreement.
8. Availability,Disruption and Downtime
8.1 While we strive toalways make our Services available to you, we do not make any promises thatthese will be available 100% of the time. Our Services may be disrupted duringcertain periods, including, for example, as a result of scheduled oremergency maintenance.
8.2 Our Services may interact with, or be relianton, products or services provided by third parties, such as cloud hostingservice providers and telecommunication providers. To the maximum extentpermitted by law, we are not liable for disruptions or downtime caused orcontributed to by these third parties, or by factors outside our control,including cellular connectivity and other environmental factors that caninhibit the performance of radio devices.
8.3 We will try toprovide you with reasonable notice, where possible, of any disruptions to youraccess to our Services.
9. IntellectualProperty and Data
9.1 We own all intellectual property rights in ourServices (including our Equipment). This includes how our Equipment looks andfunctions, as well as our copyrighted works, trademarks, inventions, designsand other intellectual property. You agree not to copy or otherwise misuse ourintellectual property without our written permission (for example, to reverse engineer or discover the source code of ourintellectual property), and you must not alter or remove any confidentiality,copyright or other ownership notice placed on our Equipment.
9.2 We may use any feedback or suggestions that yougive us in any manner which we see fit (for example, to develop new features),and no benefit will be owed to you as a result of any use by us of yourfeedback or suggestions.
10. ConfidentialInformation and Personal Information
10.1 While using our Services, you may shareconfidential information with us, and you may become aware of confidentialinformation about us. You agree not to use our confidential information, and totake reasonable steps to protect our confidential information from beingdisclosed without our permission, and we agree to do the same for yourconfidential information. This also means making sure that any employees,contractors, professional advisors or agents of ours or yours only have accessto confidential information on a ‘need-to-know basis’ (in other words, thedisclosure is absolutely necessary), and that they also agree to not misuse ordisclose such confidential information.
10.2 However, either you or we may shareconfidential information with legal or regulatory authorities if required bylaw to do so.
10.3 We collect, hold anddisclose and use any Personal Information you provide to us in accordance withour privacy policy, available on our website, and applicable privacy laws.
10.4 You must only disclose Personal Information tous if you have the right to do so (such as having the individual’s expressconsent).
10.5 We may need to disclose Personal Information tothird parties, such as our related companies or our service providers (forexample, IT and administrative service providers and our professionaladvisors).
11. Consumer LawRights
11.1 In somejurisdictions, you may have guarantees, rights or other remedies provided bylaw (ConsumerLaw Rights), and these Terms do not restrict your Consumer Law Rights. We will onlybe bound by your Consumer Law Rights and the express wording of these Terms.
11.2 Subject to yourConsumer Law Rights, we do not provide a refund for a change of mind or changein circumstance.
11.3 If you accept theseTerms in Australia, nothing in these Terms should be interpreted to exclude,restrict or modify the application of, or any rights or remedies you may haveunder, any part of the Australian Consumer Law (as set out in Schedule 2 of theCompetition and Consumer Act 2010 (Cth)). If our Services are notordinarily used for personal, household or domestic use, our liability for abreach of your Consumer Law Rights is limited to either resupplying ourServices, or paying the cost of having our Services resupplied.
12.1 To the maximum extentpermitted by law, we will not be liable for, and you release us from liabilityfor, any Liability caused or contributed to by, arising from or in connectionwith:
(a) your computing environment (for example, your hardware, software,information technology and telecommunications services and systems); or
(b) any use of our Services by a person or entity other than you.
12.2 Regardless ofwhatever else is stated in these Terms, to the maximum extent permitted by law:
(a) neither we or you are liable for any Consequential Loss;
(b) a party’s liability for any Liability under these Terms will bereduced proportionately to the extent the relevant Liability was caused orcontributed to by the actions (or inactions) of the other party, including anyfailure by the other party to mitigate its loss;
(c) (where our Services are notordinarily acquired for personal, domestic or household use or consumption) in respectof any failure by us to comply with relevant Consumer Law Rights, our Liabilityis limited (at our discretion) to supplying the Services again or paying thecost of having the Services supplied again; and
13.1 We may suspend your access to our Serviceswhere we reasonably believe there has been any unauthorised access to or use ofour Services. If we suspend your access to our Services, we will let you knowwithin a reasonable time of doing so, and we will work with you to resolve thematter.
13.2 We may terminate these Terms (meaning you willlose access to our Services and any Subscription will be cancelled) if:
(a) you fail to pay your Equipment Fees or SubscriptionFees when they are due;
(b) you breach these Terms and do not remedy thatbreach within 14 days of us notifying you of that breach;
(c) you breach these Terms and that breach cannotbe remedied; or
(d) you experience an insolvency event (includingbut not limited to bankruptcy, receivership, voluntary administration,liquidation, or entering into creditors’ schemes of arrangement).
13.3 You may terminatethese Terms if:
(a) we breach these Termsand do not remedy that breach within 14 days of you notifying us of thatbreach; or
(b) we breach these Termsand that breach cannot be remedied, and
if you have paid Subscription Fees upfront, you will be issued a pro-ratarefund of any unused Subscription Fees based on the portion of the then-currentSubscription Period remaining.
13.4 You may alsoterminate these Terms and our Services at any time by notifying us via email orphone. Your termination will take effect at the end of your current SubscriptionPeriod. If you want to reactivate our Services, you can contact us via email orphone.
13.5 Upon termination ofthese Terms, we will retain YourData (including copies) as required by law or regulatory requirements.
13.6 Termination of theseTerms will not affect any other rights or liabilities that we or you may have.
14. General
14.1 Assignment: You may not transfer or assign these Terms (including any benefits orobligations you have under these Terms) to any third party without our priorwritten consent. We may assign or transfer these Terms to a third party, ortransfer any debt owed by you to us to a debt collector or other third party.
14.2 Disputes: Neither we or you may commence court proceedings relating to anydispute, controversy or claim arising from, or in connection with, these Terms (includingany question regarding its existence, validity or termination) (Dispute) unless we and you first meet (in good faith) to resolve the Dispute.Nothing in this clause will operate to prevent us or you from seeking urgentinjunctive or equitable relief from a court of appropriate jurisdiction.
If the Dispute is notresolved at that initial meeting:
(a) where you are resident or incorporated inAustralia, refer the matter to mediation, administered by the AustralianDisputes Centre in accordance with Australian Disputes Centre Guidelines forCommercial Mediation; or
(b) where you are not resident or incorporated inAustralia, refer the matter to arbitration administered by the AustralianCentre for International Commercial Arbitration, with such arbitration to beconducted in Carlton, Victoria,before one arbitrator, in English and in accordance with the ACICA ArbitrationRules.
14.3 Events Outside Our Control: We will not be liable for any delay or failure to perform ourobligations (including our Services), if such delay or failure is caused orcontributed to by an event or circumstance beyond our reasonable control.
14.4 Governing law: These Terms are governedby the laws of Victoria, and any matter relating to these Terms is to bedetermined exclusively by the courts in Victoria and any courts entitled tohear appeals from those courts.
14.5 Illegal Requests: We reserve the right to refuse any request for or in relation to our Servicesthat we deem inappropriate, unethical, unreasonable, illegal or otherwisenon-compliant with these Terms.
14.6 Marketing: You agree that we may send you electroniccommunications about our Equipment and services. You may opt-out at any time byusing the unsubscribe function in our electronic communications.
14.7 Nature of Legal Relationship: TheseTerms do not create, and should not be interpreted so as to create, apartnership, joint venture, employment or agency relationship between us andyou.
14.8 Notices: Any notice you send to us must be sent to theemail set out at the beginning of these Terms. Any notice we send to you willbe sent to the email address registered against your profile.
14.9 Survival: Clauses 9 to 13 will survive the termination orexpiry of these Terms.
14.10 Third Party Sites: Our website may contain links to websites operated by third parties.Unless we tell you otherwise, we do not control, endorse or approve, and arenot responsible for, the content on those websites. We recommend that you makeyour own investigations in relation to the suitability of those websites. Ifyou purchase goods or services from a third party website linked from our website,those goods or services are being provided by that third party, not us. We mayreceive a benefit (which may include a referral fee or a commission) should youvisit certain third party websites through a link on our website, or forfeaturing certain goods or services on our website. We will make it clear bynotice to you which (if any) goods or services, or website links, we receive abenefit from by featuring them on our website.
15. Definitions
15.1 In these Terms:
Alert means any signal,notification, or communication initiated by the Equipment (whetherautomatically through Automatic Fall Detection Technology or manually by theuser) indicating a potential need for assistance.
Alert Response Protocol means our documented procedure for responding to Alerts, including theorder and method of contacting Nominated Contacts and/or emergency services
Automatic Fall Detection Technology means the technology incorporated into theEquipment that uses sensors and algorithms to attempt to detect when the userhas fallen and automatically raise an Alert, subject to the limitationsacknowledged in clause 2.5.
Billing Cycle meansthe recurring period for which you will be charged the Subscription Fees, asspecified in your chosen Subscription
Business Day means a day that isnot a Saturday, Sunday or public holiday in Victoria, Australia
Equipment means any physicaldevices, including but not limited to personal alarms, provided by us to youeither through purchase or hire, including all associated components,accessories, and documentation
Equipment Fees meansthe fees you pay to purchase the Equipment.
False Alert means an Alertraised by the Equipment when no actual fall has occurred or assistance isrequired.
Monitoring Centre meansthe professional monitoring facility operated by us or our authorised partnersthat receives and responds to Alerts from the Equipment
Nominated Contacts meansthe individuals you have designated and registered with us to be contacted inthe event of an Alert, whose contact details you have provided to us with theirconsent
Original Condition means theEquipment being clean and free from damage or defect, and in the same conditionin which we provided the Equipment to you, subject to fair wear and tear.
Personal Information has the meaning given in the Privacy Act 1988 (Cth), and includes anyinformation or opinion about an identified individual, or an individual who isreasonably identifiable, whether the information or opinion istrue or not, and whether the information or opinion is recorded in a tangibleform or not.
Service Availability means the periods during which our Services, including the MonitoringCentre, are operational and available to receive and respond to Alerts
Support Hours meansthe hours during which our Support Services are available, being 9:00am –5:00pm on Business Days
Services means the services we provide to you, as detailedin clause 2.1.
Support Services meansour technical support services provided to assist you with Equipment setup,troubleshooting and general inquiries during Support Hours
Subscription means your selectedplan for accessing our Services, including specific features and benefits asdetailed on our website or in your order confirmation
Subscription Fees meansthe recurring fees payable by you for your selected Subscription, as specifiedon our website or in your order confirmation, and as may be varied inaccordance with these Terms
Subscription Period means the minimum duration of your Subscription commitment as specifiedin your selected plan, which may be monthly, annually, or as otherwise agreed
Variation Notice Period means the 30-day period following our notice to you of any changes tothese Terms, the Services, or the Fees
Your Data means the information, materials,logos, documents, qualifications and other intellectual property or datasupplied by you when receiving our Services or stored by or generated by youruse of our Services, including any Personal Information collected, used,disclosed, stored or otherwise handled in connection with our Services. YourData does not include any data or information that is generated as a result ofyour usage of our Services that is a back-end or internal output or an outputotherwise generally not available to users of our Services.
Consequential Loss includesany consequential loss, special or indirect loss, real or anticipated loss ofprofit, loss of benefit, loss of revenue, loss of business, loss of goodwill,loss of opportunity, loss of savings, loss of reputation, loss of use and/orloss or corruption of data, whether under statute, contract, equity, tort(including negligence), indemnity or otherwise. However, your obligation to pay us any amounts for access to or use ofour Services will not constitute “Consequential Loss”.
Liability means any expense, cost, liability, loss,damage, claim, notice, entitlement, investigation, demand, proceeding or judgment (whether under statute,contract, equity, tort (including negligence), indemnity or otherwise), howsoever arising, whether direct or indirect and/orwhether present, unascertained, future or contingent andwhether involving a third party or us or you or otherwise.
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